Sniper Rifle

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Asmodai
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:26 pm

Sniper Rifle

Post by Asmodai » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:23 pm

Oui wrote:First of all : sniper
- this weapon is nowadays causing as much rage as never before. Each map i join i see pure fury on the chat about this weapon , people leaving after posting smth like 'screw that laser show' etc. I won't lie and say that this weapon is the main reason why I didn't play pretty much any tribes in the last 2 weeks , cause each map i join i can already see a shitload of snipers on the enemy D , and not a single capper on my team (because who wants to cap against them...) . Also people tend to use this weapon a lot nowadays. Even in 2v2 it happens that there are 2 guys standing on D with the snipe , which is just pure bullshit. If it somehow happens that a larger group of people join the server it gets even worse. 2-3 (per team) on a 5v5 is standard . As a reaction ofc noone wants to cap against this laser wall ---> main reason for deff stacking . Reduce the dmg on body hit to something like 30 , so you can actually continue capping , make HS and insta kill on light.
Quote edited in by HighDive.
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That's why i play distraction most of the maps nowaday, snipers are pretty easy to kill, or at least force them to use their energy. Ppl are blocked in a inefficient metagame.. Sniper is balance if everybody tryhard. Don't try to cap, just chainkill them :mrgreen:

Play for fun or for the win, endless debate.

OakTribes
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:33 am

Re: Promod feedback topic

Post by OakTribes » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:59 am

Sniper at the moment (and probably even during the T:V heydays) is a controversial weapon. I would like to state that, while it is annoying, I wouldn't mind if the sniper was kept the way it is.

My opinion is, as fun and effective as it is to use for some, in a skill/prediction/luck based FPS+Z like this, a weapon that can instantly damage any enemy within your sight is overpowered. Every other weapon requires an aspect of prediction that requires higher skill the further away an enemy is. Perhaps with a higher populous there would be suitable countermeasures, but for the most part that just is not the case anymore. The immediate damage aspect of the sniper cannot be changed. But here is an alternative.

My idea for the weapon is to change the energy usage to 25. Change the body damage to 15 (HS 25?). Increase ammo to 15. (Exemplary values that can be changed as seen fit, solely for the purpose of the following function.)

To take a light down from full health with this weapon, your accuracy must be impeccable. You/your team must hit 5 times:
The skill requirement of a good sniper is increased.
The time in which a shot player can analyse the situation, reroute, dodge or find cover accordingly is increased. It is a fairer fight.
The energy usage decrease puts the user in a better position to find alternative ways of taking out their opponent. (which they will likely have to do with the damage nerf)
The energy usage decrease makes the sniper a more viable weapon to use while chasing. 1 MA + 2 quick sniper hits = a dead light.
It will be kinda cool to use. A 5 hit chain on an enemy will feel far more rewarding than 1 simple hit.
There won't be so much stigma over the use of the weapon, promoting proper sportsmanship and less raging.

Oui
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:45 am

Re: Promod feedback topic

Post by Oui » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:10 am

OakTribes wrote: My idea for the weapon is to change the energy usage to 25. Change the body damage to 15 (HS 25?). Increase ammo to 15. (Exemplary values that can be changed as seen fit, solely for the purpose of the following function.)

To take a light down from full health with this weapon, your accuracy must be impeccable. You/your team must hit 5 times:
The skill requirement of a good sniper is increased.
The time in which a shot player can analyse the situation, reroute, dodge or find cover accordingly is increased. It is a fairer fight.
The energy usage decrease puts the user in a better position to find alternative ways of taking out their opponent. (which they will likely have to do with the damage nerf)
The energy usage decrease makes the sniper a more viable weapon to use while chasing. 1 MA + 2 quick sniper hits = a dead light.
It will be kinda cool to use. A 5 hit chain on an enemy will feel far more rewarding than 1 simple hit.
There won't be so much stigma over the use of the weapon, promoting proper sportsmanship and less raging.
love it

Asmodai
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:26 pm

Re: Promod feedback topic

Post by Asmodai » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:31 pm

Yeah, nice idea !

Hawk
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:43 pm

Re: Promod feedback topic

Post by Hawk » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:44 am

I would be up for testing that, however I would prefer the amount of hits required to kill a light to be max 4. I don't either want an overpowered sniper but think of it, if there are 4 snipers that all fire away on 1 light, they SHOULD defeat that light capper. We cannot just nerf the sniper into oblivion in order to "promote teamwork", the offense needs to work as a team as well. 1 solo capper against a proper defense should not be able to cap (unless the defense makes a mistake which is pretty common but we're not taking that into account now). But yeah something like 4 hits but less energy consumption sounds like a cool thing to try out, it could work.

Also maybe the relation between amount of energy/damage should be removed or changed for this? I mean if a full energy shot takes 15-20 hp, then the next shots will very quickly become useless tickles. Keep in mind snipers DO miss, so if you miss the first shot, maybe even second, hitting the third shot for it to deal.. 7 damage? Will be frustrating more than anything (although I think most people would actually love this and want the sniper to be completely deleted but that's a no-no :P).

Nice idea let's see where this goes.
General of cheating.
Admiral of destruction.
Marshall of corruption.

OakTribes
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:33 am

Re: Promod feedback topic

Post by OakTribes » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:29 pm

I was telling a half-truth when I said 5 hits, if headshots are 25 damage it would be 3-5, but I agree 4 body shots (around 19 dmg per hit) is viable too.
Imo the energy/damage relation should be removed if the sniper were to be changed this way. If it were to be an effective weapon to use while chasing for instance, you wouldnt want to only be able to take a decent shot when your energy is near full.
In hindsight a downside is that it's like a feather duster vs Heavies.

HighDive
Revengeance Engineer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Promod feedback topic

Post by HighDive » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:50 pm

...

You all know my opinion towards this by now, but guess I got no choice but to go with the flow if enough people support this idea (will add some poll later on once we got some concrete, to-the-point idea's where to go to).

Let keep one thing straight though: should this tweak be even doable and should we find someone with the skills and time (Cobra just entered University remember, although I still hope he's willing to spend a little time on this :p), then this tweak shall be available only on the public mode and not in any sort of organised scrim, mix or league, nor on the retail server. In competitive games you got no excuses not to dodge, go medium and use buckler, synchronize with a Heavy offense and use sneaky capping routes (remember, grappler allows more than just changing direction without sense). Also, don't forget this can take quite some time to get right so forget it already, that this will be "fixed" next week.

Now you will all understand that the general opinion has been written down so far: omfffffgggg nuuuurfffff snip0r ragequit. (and of course a few general thoughts where some people want this thing to go to)

What I want to know are the following things:

what adjustments should be made (be specific) and why?
Energy <-> ammo and why?
How much energy usage <-> how much ammo and why?
If ammo, reload times and why?
Headshot, what to do with that and why?
How to prevent the sniper from becomes useless (remember, I'm in for tweaking weapons but you can forget it right of the bat that I am going to allow weapons to become downright useless)?
How to not make a heavy an OP counter vs snipers?
What about amplifying the damage when hitting someone in the bac0 and why?
What about sniper damage to vehicles and why?
What about sniper damage to buildings and deployed assets and why?
....

HighDive

EDIT: How does this "idea" fare against disabling sniper until 5v5? What are your arguments for and against this?

OakTribes
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:33 am

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by OakTribes » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:47 pm

Well, provisionally let's go with this, anyone feel free to pitch in with their ideas. This is all IMO.
Apologies for repetition of points, just to get it all in one post:

what adjustments should be made (be specific) and why?
Change the damage to 20.
Change the energy usage to 25.
Change the ammo to 15.

The snipers strength is the projectile speed (instant) and the ability to damage someone from a spot of safety. A good sniper can damage anyone within their sight immediately. This is not fitting in an otherwise completely prediction based FPS+Z.
In it's current state, the sniper drains all energy after a shot. This was intended to put the user in a state of weakness, however simply makes users restrict themselves to safe situations eg. standing around their base or so far away from the target that retaliation is easily avoided.
If the damage and energy usage were scaled down together, players wouldn't be restricted to these situations. It would be viable to use in every position and more often in flight if the player is smart.
The skill requirement of the sniper would be increased, closer to that of players using other weapons like the disc launcher, helping overall balance. The use of No-scopes would be promoted. A 4-hit sniper chain would be admired instead of disdained. The sniper would viscerally *feel* better to use, and be less of a guilty pleasure.
A player would often not be able to simply rely on the sniper to kill the enemy. A variety of weapons and tactics would have to be used.

Energy <-> ammo and why?
How much energy usage <-> how much ammo and why?

See above. Energy and ammo should be consumed, to promote the use of careful, thought out shots. There would be an opportunistic gap in the flag defending of a sniper as he goes to the inv. Also because well... It's an Energy Rifle.

If ammo, reload times and why?
1.5 seconds seems reasonable. With a perfect body shot chain and no other energy consumption, 6 seconds to kill a light, 7.5 for a medium, 15 for a heavy.

Headshot, what to do with that and why?
Perhaps HS=30 damage. 3 hits for a light, 4 for a med, 7 for a heavy. Doesn't matter too much as headshots are more often than not luck. Can't remember who said that thing about headshots being a reward for nearly missing (Might have been Bins.)

How to prevent the sniper from becomes useless (remember, I'm in for tweaking weapons but you can forget it right of the bat that I am going to allow weapons to become downright useless)?
If anything, while the sniper would become less powerful, it would be more 'useful.' The sniper would have an increased variety of situations in which it can be used effectively. Though at first it might seem quite weak, a higher skillcap and less stigma means more people will train and become better at it.

How to not make a heavy an OP counter vs snipers?
Gonna need help with this one.
I am tempted to say 'use a different weapon.' The sniper will still have the advantage if the heavy is far away enough, if not the disc launcher may be better to fall back on.

What about amplifying the damage when hitting someone in the bac0 and why?
What about sniper damage to vehicles and why?
What about sniper damage to buildings and deployed assets and why?

Could be interesting functions, but personally I see no outstanding reason why these values should be any different from the norm.

-

I am a fan of disabling the current sniper until 5v5. However I think it would not be necessary with this idea.
All I would ask is what happens if you are using a sniper and the server population drops below 10?

HighDive
Revengeance Engineer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by HighDive » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:27 pm

OakTribes wrote: All I would ask is what happens if you are using a sniper and the server population drops below 10?
I would imagine it'd be quite touch to disable a weapon that has already been picked from the inventory station / deployed inventory station / rover / ground. I guess we can call this guy/girl lucky for that time being then. Even at 5v4 or 4v5 it should be easily manageable to kill that sniper if you decide to focus that player, right?

So how about "cheating" when picking up the gun over and over again... Well, no idea. Camp the spot until the goodies disappear?

Point I try to make is, it should be fairly doable to disable the sniper until 5v5 or to disable it once again should it fall below 5v5. However, I know of no function that removes all ammo for a given weapon and makes it impossible to reinvo after a certain event has been triggered.

Other than this, I imagine it would work analog to AntiRape.

HighDive

HighDive
Revengeance Engineer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by HighDive » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:34 pm

I have reduced the sniper damage by 10% meanwhile we wait for further developments.

HighDive

HighDive
Revengeance Engineer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by HighDive » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:40 am

Reduced it another 5 damage in the ini file but apparently the function now bugs.

So said in simple terms: no sniper nerf for the time being.

At least make an attempt to understand it is due to technical issues, rather than "omg killer buffed sniper again".

Thanks.

HighDive

Binswees
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:39 am

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by Binswees » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:12 pm

"Made improvements / fixed Promod"

Good fucking troll, would read again Killer. What a fucking joke.

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Cobra
Revengeance Engineer
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:25 pm

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by Cobra » Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:47 pm

Binswees wrote:"Made improvements / fixed Promod"

Good fucking troll, would read again Killer. What a fucking joke.
There is absolutely no way we can get a bug-free, fully working mod out to the public. Even if the promod gets fixed and tested pre-release, we just do not have the time and people to foolproof the promod completely. The promod is simply never going to be perfect, meaning we will have to deal with some occasional problems.
Now, Like killer said, there seems to be an issue with the function only working in some cases. So untill the next version of the promod gets released, we'll have to do with the extra 5.0 dmg
Cobra ~ Cake

Binswees
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:39 am

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by Binswees » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:18 pm

Or we can just go back to the original promod I fixed where the dmg is 35 :OOOOO

HighDive
Revengeance Engineer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Sniper Rifle

Post by HighDive » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:42 pm

Or you can start showing some fucking respect to Cobra for all the effort he put into the mod to make it what it is today.

HighDive

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