Map rotation discussion

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Moderators: Cobra, Hawk

Map Rotation

Only overplayed maps and never change the rotation
2
10%
More underplayed maps and never change the rotation
0
No votes
More underplayed maps and change these every now and then, keep overplayed maps unchanged
9
45%
More underplayed maps and change entire rotation every now and then
5
25%
Less underplayed maps and change rotation now and then
2
10%
More underplayed maps, less overplayed maps and change rotation every now and then
0
No votes
Other
2
10%
 
Total votes: 20

HighDive
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Map rotation discussion

Post by HighDive » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:05 pm

Hello Tribals,

Lately there has been a lot of discussion going on,regarding the maps that should, or should not, be played on the servers and that's why I have made this topic.

I would like to hear from you guys: would you like more variety in the map rotation(s) or rather no variety at all? Basically, should we stick overplayed maps or should we include more underplayed maps? And most importantly: WHY?

In the poll, I have created several options from which you can choose. It is impossible to list all possible options in there and that's why I would like you to vote for OTHER if you think someone else would be the ultimate outcome.

Suggestions, feedback and comments please!

NOTE:Only constructive posts will be accounted for! Blahblah without any argument(s) won't be accepted as valid!
Note that you are able to revote, should you change your mind.
Note you are always free to email or PM me if you don't want to publicly post your opinion.

HigDive

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by HighDive » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:47 pm

At this moment, 2 people have voted for ´Other´. Please explain what your suggestion is then, else I can´t really count those votes, as you will hopefully understand.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Oui » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:53 pm

so...the current map rotation is quite horrible :))
Too many new maps , total new (tvrl and TIS) , only 3 old maps. The results - first Saturday evening since the server release (the x2 one) , where we don't have a pretty much full house and a mix going - there is 1 guy on the server atm.

The server is running harsh on numbers last days , so putting such a rotation in is a horrible idea. Most people don't have these maps (tvrl and tis) , many people don't bother downloading them. And then again many people who have the maps , don't like them (since pretty much 24/7 while playing on them there are multiple guys complaining about them).

So , you can keep a few of these new in , but not 80% of the rotation.
Keep dirge and TVRL3 Inca , remove Slade and Garrison - horrible maps. Add something like faith , miasma. Also ever thought about x2 Simoom ? Nice map played in the past , liked by the majority

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by HighDive » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:31 pm

Sorry but I simply can't agree with your post Oui.

Most, if not all, people have gotten themselves the TVRL and TIS map packs by now.

Most, if not all, like a few of the newer maps. It adds variation to the rotation and prevents people from getting bored by only playing the same handful of maps. All the maps that were added, were thoroughly tested by me, Slazer, Hawk, Cobra and some others. Only those on which we all voted "Yes!", were added.

Lately, I see less and less people complain about the rotation. I assume people slowly get used to the maps and see that they aren't as bad as they first thought.

Anyway, I have taken some points of your suggestion. I added simoom and Faith, but I kept most new maps. The rotation is now much bigger and follows a simple schedule: 2 old maps, 1 new map, 2 old maps, 1 new, ....

Lastly, as this poll clearly shows: most people would like more new maps, instead of the same 5 overplayed ones 24/7.

HighDive

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Dantheman221 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:29 pm

HighDive wrote:Sorry but I simply can't agree with your post Oui.

Most, if not all, people have gotten themselves the TVRL and TIS map packs by now.

Most, if not all, like a few of the newer maps. It adds variation to the rotation and prevents people from getting bored by only playing the same handful of maps. All the maps that were added, were thoroughly tested by me, Slazer, Hawk, Cobra and some others. Only those on which we all voted "Yes!", were added.

Lately, I see less and less people complain about the rotation. I assume people slowly get used to the maps and see that they aren't as bad as they first thought.

Anyway, I have taken some points of your suggestion. I added simoom and Faith, but I kept most new maps. The rotation is now much bigger and follows a simple schedule: 2 old maps, 1 new map, 2 old maps, 1 new, ....

Lastly, as this poll clearly shows: most people would like more new maps, instead of the same 5 overplayed ones 24/7.

HighDive
I (sadly)? have to agree with HighDive on here, because the overplayed maps just get old real fast and people want something new, and exciting, not same old same old. To tell the truth, All I'm seeing is some of the same maps, and nothing really new, I know you guys have tons of maps on the server right now but you seem to refuse to showcase them and let the puppies out. (heh) :D :P

Anyways, point is players want new and exhilarating maps and something rad to play in, level the playing field of same-old boring terrain that we're seeing. If you catch my drift.
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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Hawk » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:32 pm

I catch your drift, however reality is that that is not at all what T:V players want (sadly). In fact they do not seem to know what they want at all. This is what usually (always) happens:

Standard map rotation with most popular maps is on for weeks (Raindance, Tropics, Highlands, Faith etc.). Players start complaining because "they want new maps not always these same old overplayed ones". They are given new maps. "Map rotation sucks, why can't we play good maps like Raindance/Faith?". Server empty until those maps show up and to have any regular players, they need to be in the rotation. Players are happy for a while. Repeat cycle.

The statement "we want new maps" is honestly a straight up lie from most players, they do not want new maps, it is as simple as that. I have seen this now so many times (every single time that the rotation is changed) that anyone trying to argue against me deserves a slap in the face.

When players say they want "new" maps, they mean they want a new rotation of old maps.
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Dantheman221
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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Dantheman221 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:38 pm

Hawk wrote:I catch your drift, however reality is that that is not at all what T:V players want (sadly). In fact they do not seem to know what they want at all. This is what usually (always) happens:

Standard map rotation with most popular maps is on for weeks (Raindance, Tropics, Highlands, Faith etc.). Players start complaining because "they want new maps not always these same old overplayed ones". They are given new maps. "Map rotation sucks, why can't we play good maps like Raindance/Faith?". Server empty until those maps show up and to have any regular players, they need to be in the rotation. Players are happy for a while. Repeat cycle.

The statement "we want new maps" is honestly a straight up lie from most players, they do not want new maps, it is as simple as that. I have seen this now so many times (every single time that the rotation is changed) that anyone trying to argue against me deserves a slap in the face.

When players say they want "new" maps, they mean they want a new rotation of old maps.
Lol, in that case, they are lame. xD
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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Ness » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:13 am

This game is played by the same players for years. It's easy to assume that if you see map you don't know, it sucks, because otherwise you'd already play on it.
Also maps like RD or HL ale loved by everyone, maps like Foregone are loved by most. If you put some kind of TVRL, you can be sure that about half will like it, that means less players on the server.
Also people may like or dislike map for a different reasons. I hate maps with weird colour pattern like Foregone, somebody who mainly caps will hate Simoom for lack of hills and weird flagstand, and a sniper will hate HL for that stupid fog.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Fireant » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:32 pm

Ness wrote:Also maps like RD or HL ale loved by everyone, maps like Foregone are loved by most.
I hate HL because it is too vertical/small and i dont like RD because small viewdistance. I guess i do not count then :cry:

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Sengers » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:26 pm

Some maps that just pop up in my head that are cool to play (and playable with the amount of numbers that we have):

BEML4:
Aeonian
Dangerous Crossing
CC

BEML6:
Baroness (maybe a bit to big, not sure)
Danube (Also BEML5 and 7)

BEML7:
Extinction (awesome map)

(TIS maps could be to big, not sure)
TIS:
Tribecca
Mesoc
Territory

TIS2:
Harvest

x2:
Erosion
Foregone

And FeignedBeliefs, don't know which mappack that one belongs to.

Mix these in with the maps that have been on rotation succesfully and I enjoy big times :)

Oh and btw, remove this sad, dark BEML 5 Impact, please :P

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Oui » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:04 am

yes , replace it with the other version of impact or remove it totally. The actuall one just looks crap :D

About other maps - BEML 5 (i think) Crash is also a nice , small map played in the past , also i miss Miasmaaaa :D

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Asmodai » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:48 am

+1 for Crash ;)

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Dantheman221 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:50 pm

Asmodai wrote:+1 for Crash ;)
+2 :P
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HighDive
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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by HighDive » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:32 pm

I agreed on adding the BEML5 version of Impact, because of the way the map plays. It has better terrain, which allows for more dynamic plays, it feels more open and the phase is higher then on the "regular" Impact version. Just remember, I choose maps based on how they play, not on how they look.

Color wise, the map indeed is ugly and could use a fix. I'll look into what our possibilities are.

TIS maps were removed, because I kept hearing the argument of them being too big for our current numbers. Furthermore, it didn't matter how the map looked or how easy/smooth the map played or the routes were, people didn't even manage to land a straight flag to flag route, because the name said "TIS". To be honest, this is just sad.

x2 is one of those packs, where people tend to go emo over the visual effects added to the maps. Sometimes, the terrain isn't that easy either and the combination of this results in people going berserk. For example, people can't handle Erosion, because it's too hard to land a decent route / keep your velocity.

Moving on, we get to the BEML maps. Many people have asked me, and are still asking, for new / other maps to be added, besides the ones that are in now. Only one problem, from the second another map is put into the rotation, people go mad cause it's an unknown map, so it "must" be bad. However, in my opinion, we can try to add Aeonian and perhaps extinction as a test. I doubt, however, that people will like the second one. Baroness is a bit too big for our current numbers, but if we grow some more, that one can certainly be added.

Bottom line: I am always willing to add new maps or to adjust the map rotation, I'd even love to do so, but fact remains that when I do so, most people can't handle the change.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Oui » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:49 pm

hai
so what about mixing the rotation up a little bit? It stays the same for too long imo , feels like playing the same maps over and over again in the same order.
SO what about changing the order of the maps and add a few like folly , crash , miasma , fb ?

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by HighDive » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:16 pm

Removed CanyonCrusade and added Aeonian instead, as a starters.

By the way, Oui, you do know that all maps you just suggested have been removed, cause people went berserk on those, right?

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Oui » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:48 pm

well i don't remember ever seeing any1 going 'berserk' 'cause of them , tho i remember them fairly played and liked in the past
ofc not ALL love them , but most will accept them. I also absolutely HATE beml5 impact and no one cares ;p
but what ever

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Hawk » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:55 pm

I will throw up if I see Folly again within the next 6 months.
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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Binswees » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:20 am

Folly is a shit map. Agreed.

FB, Miasma and baroness could be cool to add.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by DiceRolla » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:42 pm

now I know this can turn into an argument, but I think a discussion can be productive for either a rotation modification, OR a rotation for the retail server. the last I dunno three days I've been asking people in game how they feel about the maps currently in rotation, and up until today it's been three people saying BOO (for lack of a better term) 2 people saying I don't really care, and two people going leave it alone, today it was three saying yay, three saying boo and the rest silent. Now I understand a bad rotation could kill the game, not arguing with that point. What I have seen however is the last three days we have indeed voted a different map in todays was cavern yesterdays was emerald, the day befor I don't think a vote happened, but today I also stumbled across the fact that I'm not the only person who can't vote, I know the cause is a map just can't find witch one yet. But Rasputain has proposed what I think is a good middle ground, every X number of rotations throw in like an emerald, or whatever so the rotation would look something like.

RD, Myata, Tropics, Bloodveldt, Tangent, HL,
RD, Myata, Tropics, Bloodveldt, Tangent, HL, Emmy,
RD, Myata, Tropics, Bloodveldt, Tangent, HL,
RD, Myata, Tropics, Bloodveldt, Tangent, HL, Isle
RD, Myata, Tropics, Bloodveldt, Tangent, HL,
RD, Myata, Tropics, Bloodveldt, Tangent, HL, cavern
loop

not necessarily those but you get the idea, now also something to be aware of is highdive has been trying to get people to test the "FIX" maps, these maps are supposed ot get tested to be tweaked so that people like them so they can be prospects for rotation, if they are not tested by everyone how then can we please everyone? I know we'r small, but that should make it easier to organize, and cooperate...not the opposite...in my opinion it should also be a driving force to make us want to cooperate. I have been posting these links, and screens of these maps for months now (almost 3 i think) and I have gotten input from highdive...on one map, now I know he's busy with the site and RL, but in reality how hard is it to boot up hit tab type MP-Abandon-Beta (example) enter and ski for 5 min then come back and be like "BLARAGLEARGLE terrain blows!!" or the opposite. I dunno I guess I want to know if I'm doing this for you guys or myself, I personally enjoy doing it but if you folks are interested in new content I'd like your input, and it's the same with the server rotations.

in my opinion the current promod rotation is just stale not bad and I have noticed I am not alone in this thought process, now I don't want to argue about it like I stated earlier, think of this as more of a poll to accurately record the %'ages of the community who are for something a little different and are not. Because what I witnessed today was not a lot different than watching mal argue with random players in the past, only this time it did not end with a ban, basically an argument with all ears closed. I care about this community but I fear our egos continue to haunt us in a similar fashion as with the first collapse of player based, but not yet so far along.

I just think this is a better format than in game chat, that format tends to push peoples tempers and cause them not to want to hear others ideas, I bring this up simply because I enjoy the game and this is a dialog that does go on fairly often. I would also suggest holding off any modification until after the fix pack has been completed.

this is just how I see it, perhaps others see it quite differently.

waste of time again? lol

I'm just trying to voice what I see without looking angry like I imagine I would appear in chat, it's simply an observation with a proposed solution that may just be a middle ground, how man grumbled today when we played cavern? I think 1 out of 8, and when the 20 mins where up it was over...kinda how I feel every time highlands comes on, but I don't all ways complain about it I just fumble around like normal.

From what I see in this thread, the vote and the comments, ras's idea may very well work as I know you can make the ration as long as you want, and it just loops when the list ends it's also easy to modify because you just copy paste the main rotation and type in the random maps every X amount of rotations (if I am remembering properly from when I had a server if not then the point is probably totally moot).

lol I also noticed on the forums the attitude "you suck, why should we care about your opinion" this was however directed at yid (search his name once on the forum)

but an ultimate resolution might be to put together a rotation for the retail server like was suggested by I believe hawk, not 100% on that but hawk and I have had a similar dialog as I did today with "jackie chan"

sorry for the big ass post, I'm assuming one person will read it like usual so bam! lol

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by OakTribes » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:02 am

DiceRolla wrote:now I know this can turn into an argument...
I think that a map rotation will never be perfect, simply because some love certain maps and others not. (Tbh I would love an Emmy in every rotation) The more 'out there' a map is, the wider the abyss between players that love and hate it. To find a perfect middle ground would be to use old, well known maps and effectively make the rotation too bland, which is what I feel summarizes this thread. It seems like this will take place:

Map rotates to something some despise but others love: A few players leave, server potentially dies for awhile simply because of lack of players.
Map rotates to something that may be bland/overplayed but is still a solid map: Players tolerate and server stays alive. Too many of these in a row however, and it will grate on people...

This is going to be an issue as long as our numbers are on average as low as they are.
However, with reliable Admin presence maps can be decided in advance from the preferences of the current server populous. Players joining this will only have to tolerate the current map if they don't like it, and from then their opinion is thrown into the soup. Though I hope and predict numbers will increase in future, we can't operate in the same fashion that we were in the days there were 3 packed servers that you could pick and choose from.

I would recommend changing the retail server to the 'new/fix' map server and adding promod to it, instead of changing the the promod server to solely rotate on these maps. Any new players that are expected for the retail server are given the chance to download the newer map packs for the promod server anyway when they download T:V, and that is where they tend to end up as the population bulks there. This gives a chance for the 'new/fix' map rotation to see some action by a few intrepid players while also offering the old faithful maps for the majority of the playerbase. Then the 'new/fix' maps can be gradually introduced into the promod rotation as people become accustomed to them.

TLDR: Overplayed > Shitty maps. Test new/fixed maps on retail server first.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by DiceRolla » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:14 pm

OakTribes wrote:
DiceRolla wrote:now I know this can turn into an argument...
I think that a map rotation will never be perfect, simply because some love certain maps and others not. (Tbh I would love an Emmy in every rotation) The more 'out there' a map is, the wider the abyss between players that love and hate it. To find a perfect middle ground would be to use old, well known maps and effectively make the rotation too bland, which is what I feel summarizes this thread. It seems like this will take place:

Map rotates to something some despise but others love: A few players leave, server potentially dies for awhile simply because of lack of players.
Map rotates to something that may be bland/overplayed but is still a solid map: Players tolerate and server stays alive. Too many of these in a row however, and it will grate on people...

This is going to be an issue as long as our numbers are on average as low as they are.
However, with reliable Admin presence maps can be decided in advance from the preferences of the current server populous. Players joining this will only have to tolerate the current map if they don't like it, and from then their opinion is thrown into the soup. Though I hope and predict numbers will increase in future, we can't operate in the same fashion that we were in the days there were 3 packed servers that you could pick and choose from.

I would recommend changing the retail server to the 'new/fix' map server and adding promod to it, instead of changing the the promod server to solely rotate on these maps. Any new players that are expected for the retail server are given the chance to download the newer map packs for the promod server anyway when they download T:V, and that is where they tend to end up as the population bulks there. This gives a chance for the 'new/fix' map rotation to see some action by a few intrepid players while also offering the old faithful maps for the majority of the playerbase. Then the 'new/fix' maps can be gradually introduced into the promod rotation as people become accustomed to them.

TLDR: Overplayed > Shitty maps. Test new/fixed maps on retail server first.
I like your take on it as well, I am curious about your opinion on the proposed type of rotation, basically adding some obscure map every other rotationish, it would allow for something "fresh" every now and then without the need to an admin or vote. I see it as not too extreme as it really doesn't modify anything it just adds some flavor. BUT people HAVE to test the damn test maps lol (not angry thats just how I'd be speaking) I mean it is kinda like pulling teeth to get people to even test new content, the only people I have personally gotten feed back form is highdive and scaled_one (scaled,skalded..I dunno the new guy). I guess I'm mostly trying to answer if I am mapping for myself, or for you guys..and I'd personally want to play something that we all haven't been on for almost a decade, but I'm certain there is a middle ground and I'm almost as certain it's ras's idea. I mean the poll at the top of this thread even suggests ras's idea is the happy medium.

but if I'm mapping for you folks I need your input.

also the promod is on the test server...but I'm not certain witch version of the test maps are up there at the moment

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by OakTribes » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:29 am

I like the idea of switching up a map or two every rotation, especially when those maps are nostalgic oldies like Arid, Winterlake, hell even the odd Spiridian match would be fun. I agree that this is the best sounding way at the moment.

As for lesser known/played or new maps, supposedly the wisest way to approach it would have to involve players opinions of said maps like you have, but from you and Highdive's last posts it's very clear that community feedback/testing is very lacking (something I am guilty of aswell.)
I don't have any solutions for this but to add more of my effort in future, as many people like me will just play the game to unwind and with a sense of dissolution-of-responsibility avoid the more tedious (for some) aspects like downloading/testing various maps and providing feedback or getting themselves and their opinions involved with such an intensity as others. Hopefully in future more people do clock on that their opinion can carry a lot of power if it's let known.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by DiceRolla » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:04 am

OakTribes wrote:I like the idea of switching up a map or two every rotation, especially when those maps are nostalgic oldies like Arid, Winterlake, hell even the odd Spiridian match would be fun. I agree that this is the best sounding way at the moment.

As for lesser known/played or new maps, supposedly the wisest way to approach it would have to involve players opinions of said maps like you have, but from you and Highdive's last posts it's very clear that community feedback/testing is very lacking (something I am guilty of aswell.)
I don't have any solutions for this but to add more of my effort in future, as many people like me will just play the game to unwind and with a sense of dissolution-of-responsibility avoid the more tedious (for some) aspects like downloading/testing various maps and providing feedback or getting themselves and their opinions involved with such an intensity as others. Hopefully in future more people do clock on that their opinion can carry a lot of power if it's let known.
love it oak =D thanks for at least being a voice in the void so to speak.

I agree that testing can seem/be tedious/intimidating but a lot of the time it's install and run around for 5-10 min and give feed back in any form to either killer or myself so that it can be recorded where it should be. (basically suggesting boot up a map and tell one of us in game)

most of the good feed back is like Grr I hate that rock, or this hill is too steep, and those simple factors often make or break a map

but even having maps installed so that one random day when we are bored we could jump on the test server for something different would be pretty awesome, because ultimately this "test server" is meant to help with the "staleness" of overplayed maps, and basically we don't have many decent maps because no one ever really provided useful feed back over the coarse of the games history (at least from my perspective) I do also see it from the perspective of it adding a "responsibility" to a game. But I'm noticing a growing portion of the community feeling whats been played is getting stale, witch is possibly just as harmful as forcing a bad rotation on all players especially at a point when the community itself is beginning to grow again after highdive (and associates) work.

lol waiting till version 2 or 3 (3 seems to be the magic number on fixes) to test if you don't want to DL and install copious copies of maps would be a decent strategy, as obviously at least you oak check the forums regularity ish (basically my advice to anyone who would check in on like a weekly biweekly basis)

I think I'm seeing different points of view than the main community because I'm around earlier and/or later than that group, and those outlying group/groups don't seem to connect with the other, yet they are still nearly or are as large a population.

is there a particular time day of the week that we may e able to test some of the fix maps? I know it's kind of a pain but I all ways find it refreshing once I have them open in game and I'm shooting at someone or being shot at in unfamiliar territory (perhaps we plan something two weeks out? )

anyway I think I might be repeating myself again, and I think I've voiced all I have to say on the topic so I guess it's time to stop beating the horse, thanks for hearing me out and answering my questions.

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Re: Map rotation discussion

Post by Oui » Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:25 am

So what about some change in the rotation finally ? Bored to death atm by playing maps over and over again in the same order... I miss maps like faith , foregone , miasma , crash , isle , cc :/

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